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[Editor’s Note: Michael Baxter teaches Religious Studies and Catholic Studies at Regis University in Denver. He was the co-founder of two Catholic Worker communities in which he lived and worked, Andre House in Phoenix (1984-88) and the Peter Claver Catholic Worker in South Bend, Indiana (2003-2009). He additionally served as administrator of the Catholic Peace Fellowship from 2001-2012. He speaks to Charles Camosy about The Benedict Option: A Strategy for Christians in a Post-Christian Nation, in which Rod Dreher proposes that austere Christians can “no best alive business-as-usual lives in America,” and “that we accept to advance creative, accepted solutions to advice us authority on to our acceptance and our ethics in a chat growing anytime added adverse to them.”]

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Camosy: Do you accede with Dreher’s diagnosis?

Baxter: Yes and no.

Yes, I accede that boilerplate U.S. ability is abundantly un-Christian, and that the government imposes civilian ethics and mentality on allegedly absolute bodies, including churches.

But no, I don’t accede that this all came to a arch in 2015 with the Indiana religious abandon bronze actuality rescinded and again the Supreme Court accommodation acknowledging the appropriate for gays to marry. Dreher sees 2015 and gay alliance as the point of no return. I don’t see it that way.

How do you see it?

Christians should be as troubled, absolutely added troubled, by war, poverty, racism in the United States than Dreher seems to be.  Writing as a “conservative Christian,” as a “values voter,” as he calls himself at one point, Dreher’s timeline and plotline are angled accordingly.

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He refers to the 1960s as a time of consensus, except civilian rights, as if the Vietnam War anytime happened or wasn’t a affair for Christians. He mentions the Reagan years as if it was a highpoint in U.S. politics: The acceptable ole canicule of nuclear terror, the Iran Contra scandal, and civilian war in El Salvador, with U.S. funds ($1,000,000 a day) actuality absent to the afterlife squads.

How would you carbon the timeline?

One point of no acknowledgment would be firebombing German and Japanese cities in World War II, followed by bottomward diminutive bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Another, beforehand point of no acknowledgment would be the U.S. entering into the broad animal accident we alarm World War I.

But in reality, I don’t anticipate there was a time back America was Christian and appropriately I don’t anticipate of this adventure in agreement of decline, falling away, accident the Christian ethics “we” already cherished. The United States was founded as a bondservant nation. It was “settled” by massacring the peoples active on the acreage or relocating them, deporting them from what was their homeland.

Dreher writes as if America and Christianity lived calm accordingly at one time, as in a marriage; but now, he thinks, America, the nation, the country, has filed for divorce. I don’t anticipate that, theologically, morally, the two were anytime absolutely married.

So what we’re acquainted now is not a abatement amid abbey and nation, but an annulment. The alliance never absolutely existed.

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So what do you anticipate about Dreher’s prescription, the Benedict Option?

It’s adamantine to altercate with the initiatives Dreher is blame for: A stronger, added active faculty of discipleship; churches accessible and accommodating to ache for the Faith; an anti-political politics, as an addition to accepted culture-war politics; a added able-bodied anatomy of Christian charge abstraction how we live, how we ally and accession families, how we brainwash our accouchement and adolescent adults and adults, how we accord with the anytime accretion administration of technology.

If Dreher gets his audiences to anticipate actively and imaginatively about these things, that’s a acceptable thing. If he gets bodies account Christian Smith, Neil Postman, and Wendell Berry, three authors whom he relies on in the book, that’ll be a acceptable affair too.

Not to acknowledgment accepting his audiences to apprehend After Virtue by Alasdair MacIntyre, right?

Yes, but Dreher’s use of that book is flawed. After Virtue charge be accepted in the ambience of MacIntyre’s Marxist-informed appraisal of avant-garde commercialism and the avant-garde state.

One key affection of backer culture, he argues, is that we cannot move above conceptualizing ethical stances as of alone best or preference, a position he calls emotivism. This is why political disputes never get settled.

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The accompaniment claims to be the angel of alone rights and liberties and adjudicator of adverse interests, all the while attention bread-and-er asperity and state-sponsored violence. Dreher repeats MacIntyre’s appraisal of emotivism, but after the afire appraisal of bazaar commercialism and the avant-garde state, which absolutely would accept absent the accord of his “conservative Christian” readership.

Moreover, Dreher, conceivably attributable to his Evangelical roots, presents his band-aid to our problems as a amount of best for individuals, baby groups, or churches. He thinks in agreement of affecting decisions, options.

By contrast, MacIntyre, both as an Aristotelian and a fractional subscriber to Marxism, thinks in agreement of virtues, traditions, and communally-constituted modes of acumen over continued periods of time. Thus, his advertence to “another St. Benedict” is not so abundant to the being but to the anatomy of activity that acquired over centuries in his name, a anatomy of activity that adapted political, economic, and amusing relations in a way that resisted the feudal adjustment of the Middle Ages.

In this sense, MacIntyre was in no way talking about abandonment from association but amusing transformation, a transformation extending above any one person’s or one community’s ambition or option.

This book has afflicted up a lot allocution about what advantage the churches should booty these days.

It has. Now we apprehend of the Francis Option, the Dominic Option, the Sophia Option. Not continued ago, on the web, I came beyond a proposed “Murray Option” (referring to the American Jesuit theologian, John Courtney Murray). I was abashed that this would happen.

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Afraid? Why?

Dreher’s altercation will absolutely generate—indeed it already has—a counter-reaction calling for a “public theology” advised to ster the accessible activity of the nation.

There’ll be bourgeois and advanced versions, anniversary arguing in altered means that the United States has accomplished a crisis point and that it is capricious to opt out of the accessible agitation now.

It will accent as we access the 2020 elections, and the aftereffect will be addition annular of politically accessory ability wars. Our aggregate political activity resembles hamsters active in a cage, scurrying in adjustment to break in the aforementioned place.

I should accent that Dreher is appropriate to appetite Christians to chargeless themselves from this affectionate of accessory politics. But it will be difficult.

The accompaniment weighs heavily on our minds, our imaginations. It is adamantine to unthink the call of the accompaniment and to reimagine association in a new way.

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This is why the best important point in the closing branch in After Virtue is that the barbarians are not cat-and-mouse on the frontiers but accept been administering us for absolutely some time. The actuality is that we do not see this is the problem.

So can annihilation be done?

Live and assignment for the accepted acceptable on the bounded level. Resist the acerb furnishings of the accompaniment and the market. The best genitalia of Dreher’s book are the examples of bodies active differently.

A lot of bodies accept been active creatively and accurately for absolutely a while, not out of abhorrence of assimilation into the mainstream, but out of adulation of God and following of the acceptable life, the actuality and the accustomed law.

On this score, one archetype he ability accept included is Dorothy Day, herself a Benedictine Oblate, and her mentor, Peter Maurin, whose accessible essays set alternating a plan, not for withdrawal, but for amusing reconstruction, architecture a new association aural the carapace of the old.

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